I decided to start a thread so we can all get on the same page about how many times it's OK to promote a thing on the forum.
The rule is that you can plug any given scene once (plus one additional time if it's on a new store of yours). If you make a thread with only pictures from the scene, that counts as a plug, and you cannot plug it again--not even using our internal promo tool. This applies for scenes already shot, and aims to prevent the strategic milking of material beyond the one (or two) allowed promotions.
If you are excited about an upcoming shoot and want to tell the forum, that's fine, and that doesn't count. But if it's already been shot, please do not post preview pics from a shoot that's already done. Or if you do, let that be your one single promo.
I realize that this throws a little cold water on some of the lively discussion that could occur about some of the bigger shoots (especially ones that you might have paid a lot of time, effort, and money to prepare). But the forum is a place that's primarily for discussion. Plugs are allowed too, but it shouldn't be taken for granted as an ad farm. It's an ecosphere that requires balance, and sometimes producers lean on it a little too hard as their only source of promotion.
So the rules are what they are, but I wanted to open the floor for discussion from anyone who thinks the rules suck, should be different or tweaked, or whatever. From what I understand, some producers think that others are getting away with murder, so I'd like to clear it all up if I can.
Messmaster
Stay messy, my friends
2/28/21, 9:37am: moved from Store Owners to Wammasters
I think that this is a very worthwhile discussion to have, to ask questions and to be on the same page. Particularly this year, I have been in a position where I have needed to promote back catalogue more than ever, and am wary of upsetting other people with excessive posts.
For example, I am currently running a promotion, and as I haven't been able to shoot new material for some time, I am sharing pictures of previously promoted material, but in the context that there is an offer currently available to customers - is that acceptable and how do other producers feel about this?
Another thing that I have done this year is to go back to old master copies and create new, better quality versions, and have created threads to highlight these being available - where does that sit in the rules?
While I don't think I've ever done a "teaser of what's coming next week" type post, I have, very occasionally, posted a teaser thread with a few images from a day's or weekend's shooting, usually phone camera snapshots taken during the shoots, rather than main camera shots. I got the idea from remembering the old Messy Fun newsletters where Rob would let us know what he'd been shooting (though in text only) since the previous newsletter. The first time I did it was mainly to let someone who'd supplied several outfits know they'd been used in scenes, and letting other fans of the same style know we had material somewhere in the pipeline - but without any release dates or other details - it was meant to be conversational, not sales-oriented. Is that kind of thing still OK if done very sparingly?
Our usual promo cycle for a scene is: When a scene is first released it goes to the Members Lounge of the Saturation Hall or Langstonedale membership sites. First promo, hand-built, is done then, with an announce in What's New and a forum post with free pictures. Six months later it rotates out of the Lounges, and gets released on the download store. UMD promo-tool post with pics is done then. And that's it. Six months after download store release the scenes become available on our streaming service but that's just part of the UMD store rather than a new site so repromoting fo that would seem like spamming, plus I think the "Once for membership, once for store" uses up the two allowed plugs.
@GirlsGetGunged: My understanding of the rules is that it's OK to re-promote if there has been a genuine, permanent, substantive change. Some years ago I permanently reduced the price of all of our older, pre-HD scenes, in some cases by more tha half (I think one photo-only scene from 2006 went from $18 to $5). I started a new thread "Saturation Hall Price Crash" and as each scene's price was changed I posted a new promo to that thread - at the time MM indicated that this was fine, as a) it was just the one thread so those not interested could ignore it, and b) I was making a genuine, permanent, and substantial change to the scenes in question. I'd imagine that remastering to significantly higher resolution would also count - we've just upgraded to 4k for our future masters though plan to keep releasing in Full-HD - but in ten year's time we might remaster all the 2021-onwards scenes to 4k and re-release.
In general (and I apply this as an admin too) I've always got the impression that doing something that wouldn't be allowed if done constantly is OK if done only very occasionally. So if someone is self-answering every post they get dealt with, but if they only do it once a year it gets let through.
If another producer releases something I really like the look of, to the extent I'd seriously consider buying it, I'll often reply to the thread as a friendly bump, but only if it's completely genuine, usually because I really like the outfit a model is wearing, as that, plus competent camera work, are my pimary criteria for buying scenes.
We should all respect the etiquette rules of UMD. My understanding of how plugs or promos work is that there are 3 plug options a Producer can use....
1) Via the "Whats New" feature to the UMD Home Page 2) Via the "Promote" tool in every Producers admin dashboard (UMD Store owners only) 3) Via an adhoc free format posting to the forums
Option 1 should only be used by Producers who have external stores and sites, because there is no need for any Producer who has an internal UMD store to post to Whats New, because all UMD store new updates get fed automatically to "Whats New" by Messmasters internal system. Therefore I never need to use this option, because all my UMD store updates get fed automatically to Whats New on the home page.
Option 2. The "Promote" tool which is only available to UMD store owners does not need to be policed or monitored, because it is already hardcoded with a system check that only allows you to use the promo tool no more than once per day. This is not really a rule of etiquette or something that requires discretion, it is a hardcoded system check that PREVENTS you from using that tool more than once per day. So...this is auto controlled by the UMD system, so there is no need for discussion....this is already auto policed.
Option 3. This is the main area that requires Producers to use their discretion and to follow etiquette. Personally, I never use Options 1 or 3...I have no need to use them because Option 2 works just fine for me.
It would be easy-peasy for Messmaster to exert more control over Option 3 ..i.e. Producers who post too many free format promotional messages to the forums....which may annoy some of the UMD fans who may consider this to be Spam. This can be done by a Draconian method or less Draconian forum coding change.
THE DRACONIAN METHOD IS: To segregate all commercial postings to a separate forum, so that the discussion forums are totally spam free and are for discussions only, and all commercials and promos from Producers can only be posted to a separate sub forum for Producer posts only. I know that most Producers would not like this idea, but I am sure that the general wam fans would prefer to see more discussions and less spam when they visit the so called Discussion forums.
THE LESS DRACONIAN METHOD IS: The forum system already requires message posters to define whether their post is "female" or "male" or "coed"....so just add 2 more buttons to require a poster to define whether a post is a "Discussion" or a "Promo". Then, just as the system already blocks Producers from using the promo tool more than once per day, the UMD system should police and block producers from using the Promo tool or the Open forum "promo" button more than X times per week. IMHO I feel that limiting Producers to no more than 1 promo per day is very generous already, and I would prefer to see this rule extended....to more like once every 3 days or every 5 days.
Messmaster could then offer a new feature to his UMD VIP clubmembers....i.e. VIP members should have the option to view a spam free forum that will "filter" and "hide" all forum postings defined as "promos" and only display the "discussion" messages. Then UMD visitors will not have any cause to complain about spam on the forums....because the answer will be...if you want a spam-free forum, then upgrade to a UMD VIP membership and then you can filter out the commercial postings.
I've had to moderate a lot of posts recently for mentioning sales more than once. Plugging sales is the same as plugging scenes in that it should only be done once and not repeated inside of multiple messages. Done a couple of times it could be harmless, but I want to avoid tempting producers who will deliberately post more frequent comments, picture dumps, old scenes, extra fan banter, and everything else they can just to mention the sale again. All the producers will want to do this and it will get out of control.
I know this is a lot of people's business and livelihoods, but I don't appreciate people "working" this site aggressively by finding nuanced ways to bend the rules. I'd rather find better ways to approach the issue, usually putting the onus on me to program something Just today I updated the forum signatures to mention any percentage sale that you're currently running on your stores. Everybody gets that automatically, so hopefully less pressure to plug it inside the posts.
This is all I've got, insofar as a solution to the issue of people wanting to mention their sales more than once. If anybody has any ideas for a rule chance, the floor is yours.
Seriously, posting preview pictures from your shoot is advertising it, right? And then plugging the actual scene once it's up is advertising it again, right?
This has been against the rules longer than I can remember, but producers still have a fit when they do it anyway and I point this out to them. And 100% of the time they complain that they know of someone *else* who has gotten away with it (but the caught producer never flagged or alerted anyone until they were caught themselves).
This is really frustrating. I wouldn't mind it now and then because when you're excited when you're fresh off of a good shoot, you want to tell somebody. I even thought about adjusting the rules to allow maybe one preview post and then the real ad. But if all the producers are going to do this, I fear that they would milk the forum even more and flood it with more strategic ads.
If anyone has ideas for a solution (that does not require extra moderation--that's the kicker) then I'm listening. Otherwise, the one-plug-per-scene rules is still in effect.
Messmaster said: Seriously, posting preview pictures from your shoot is advertising it, right? And then plugging the actual scene once it's up is advertising it again, right?
This has been against the rules longer than I can remember, but producers still have a fit when they do it anyway and I point this out to them. And 100% of the time they complain that they know of someone *else* who has gotten away with it (but the caught producer never flagged or alerted anyone until they were caught themselves).
This is really frustrating. I wouldn't mind it now and then because when you're excited when you're fresh off of a good shoot, you want to tell somebody. I even thought about adjusting the rules to allow maybe one preview post and then the real ad. But if all the producers are going to do this, I fear that they would milk the forum even more and flood it with more strategic ads.
If anyone has ideas for a solution (that does not require extra moderation--that's the kicker) then I'm listening. Otherwise, the one-plug-per-scene rules is still in effect.
Does the TOS have language to the effect of "Not removing a post that violates TOS doesn't constitute permission"?
Something that cuts you slack in case you missed a post or no one flagged it?
If not, that might be helpful. I've seen that in other TOS, which I've always interpretted as reserving the right to strike something, regardless of how long it's been up, and just because someone else got away with it doesn't mean you will.
piboiva said: Does the TOS have language to the effect of "Not removing a post that violates TOS doesn't constitute permission"?
Something that cuts you slack in case you missed a post or no one flagged it?
I've avoided adding language like that to the TOS, but maybe I should some day? I didn't want to add anything that amounted to a reminder that the rules are STILL the rules even if you see them broken somewhere. I think this is already obvious and people know what the hell they're doing when they break or bend them. When they see others doing breaking rules, instead of flagging it they take advantage by using it as cover and justification to do it themselves.
And when I step in, it's "Oh, but this person did that so why are you singling me out?" It's like driving 80 when you see other people driving 80 and then getting mad at the cop when you were the one pulled over. The driver knew the limit, and I don't think it would help to add a little note under the speed limit sign saying "Max Speed 55mph, even if you see others going over that!" I could be wrong when it comes to posting on a site tho....
Also, can I remind all admin again to please just flag items and leave them there for me to tend to. I want to be the one who merges threads and deletes all but the most obvious infractions. It will add a little more consistency to our actions, as you know we're constantly being accused by most producers of being biased toward the other producers.
I still invite all producers to chime in on this thread if you have problems with consistency or issues with the policies in the first place. We don't get very far with grumbling under your breath about moves we've made. If you feel that you're being treated unfairly, that's a conversation I'd like to have here in front of everyone so we can all learn.
It really seems that a lot of producers want to upload preview pics separately from their actual promotion. If that's what everybody wanted and agreed with, we could allow 1 preview + 1 promotion.... or something like that. It would seem like a win for producers and viewers alike, but then again the whole reason for limiting this stuff is to avoid drowning out real conversation on the forum with all these plugs. That said, we have more filtering/muting options now, so maybe it would be okay?
Interested to see if anyone has any input or advice? Messmaster
My gut reaction is I'm not keen on the idea, as what I suspect would happen is the producers who already always get a ton of responses to their threads would get double the attention, to the detriment of everyone else.
Then again as someone who's been Wammer Of The Day precisely once in all the years I've been here, while others seem to get it every few days, I suppose being able to post sneak-peek-previews, perhaps just the clean shots, on a Monday, followed by the actual scene promos themselves a few days later, might finally get me noticed?
I'm also not keen on the idea. I'm very happy with the current rules. The fact that I don't dive in and complain every time I see a minor breach of the current rules, is not a signal that I don't like the rules, it's just the fact that, to use your party analogy, I have always felt that unless someone was doing something totally egregious, then I would trust that the party host would apply discretion and allow a degree of latitude, but would enforce when needed. I have been happy with how that philosophy has worked, and contrary to your assertion in your original post, I have never felt any other producers are 'getting away with murder'.
Similarly I didn't reply here before when you asked for people who were unhappy with the rule to comment, because the current rule seems very sensible and fair and easy to follow to me, and I was/am happy with it. I do think if we officially sanctioned 1 preview per scene, the forum really would drown in producer promotions, as producers who don't do much of that would feel they had to, in order to compete (I know I would). If you look at how many scenes are released every day on UMD it could get very very spammy-y. At the moment the worst it is possible to say, is that a couple of producers skate round the edges occasionally, but nothing that has ever bothered me...and you have clearly stepped in for anything that was a real issue.
So for me the "you can plug any given scene once (plus one additional time if it's on a new store of yours)" is fair and the best way of allowing discussion threads to be seen, and not drowned in a see of previews and promos.
RevSlymsford said: "to use your party analogy, I have always felt that unless someone was doing something totally egregious, then I would trust that the party host would apply discretion and allow a degree of latitude, but would enforce when needed
I could not have put it more succinctly. I actually LOVE it when people post pictures and are all excited about the shoot and get the community excited. Hell, it's free content for the site. It's sad when the rules have to become binary just because some people take every advantage they can. That means the DM1's of the world can't post some cool pics from a shoot sometime while others who obviously work the system get an advantage.
I wish other producers would get involved on this thread, especially those who have the most to complain about.
Just a reply to vent. UGHGH! Why is it so consistent that when a producer's post gets removed for actually violating a rule, they always inbox me and chew me out, blaming the system for being unfair? And they blame disgruntled producers for doing the flagging when they actually have no clue who did the flagging? Why are they always so concerned with who ratted them out than the fact that they knowingly violated the rules themselves? And when they're caught, why do they suddenly have this whole list of other people violating the rules that they didn't bother to flag at the time?
Everybody needs to stop gaming the system and pushing it further when they think others are getting away with stuff. You know what you're doing and this playing dumb has to stop!
I'm gonna just start replying to these angry messages with this https://umd.net/termsofservice/#fairness_in_moderating "Most of this site is unmoderated, meaning that your posts and content do not go through a pre-approval process before being shown. Therefore, admins must rely heavily on flags and reports from the community to bring attention to issues. Some of the more prolific producers may feel that they are flagged and singled out more than others, but that's not because of some institutional bias. Often it's just a function of them being more visible and having more content and posts out there. We have no control over who and what the community chooses to flag, and producers who post more will naturally receive more attention and flags. Also, you will not be able to gauge how much corrective action is actually being applied to others because moderation is often done in silence so as not to disrupt the community. That said, this being a community-based reporting system, some issues will sadly be overlooked. You can help us moderate more consistently and fairly by bringing any issue to our attention at the time you see it; Bringing up past grievances only when you are on the hot seat yourself implies that you care more about deflecting from your own situation than working to toward a more-equitable application of the rules."
@MM You shouldn't be taking any flak for enforcing rules that are known and I can't begin to imagine how frustrating it is for you. When they pull out the tired techniques of attack and distract, you know that you're in the right and have caught them out.
I am confident that you are handling the flags and alerts fairly, and also quickly. I know that you just wanted to vent but know that we're on your side and here for you.
I think it's good to have rules regarding promotions in order to keep the balance between commercial content and discussion and it's only fair to enforce them.
I have a particular question though. I usually plug my scenes once they are up on my website and once I transfer them also to my UMD store I use the promotion tool here. Judging from the TOS I think that's fine.
However - in part due to not being able to shoot new material during the pandemic - I also started to revisit my older scenes and especially the videos (but also photosets) by using AI techniques to siginificantly improve video quality and upscaling them (e.g. from 720p to 1080p). Now I am curious on how to promote those "remastered" scenes. I was thinking about adding new scenes to my store but obviously that's a grey area because technically it's "old" material. If I only exchange the video files in my scenes no one would ever notice it. How's your view on this?
I think it's good to have rules regarding promotions in order to keep the balance between commercial content and discussion and it's only fair to enforce them.
I have a particular question though. I usually plug my scenes once they are up on my website and once I transfer them also to my UMD store I use the promotion tool here. Judging from the TOS I think that's fine.
However - in part due to not being able to shoot new material during the pandemic - I also started to revisit my older scenes and especially the videos (but also photosets) by using AI techniques to siginificantly improve video quality and upscaling them (e.g. from 720p to 1080p). Now I am curious on how to promote those "remastered" scenes. I was thinking about adding new scenes to my store but obviously that's a grey area because technically it's "old" material. If I only exchange the video files in my scenes no one would ever notice it. How's your view on this?
Chris
I am also curious about this. I am new to producing and just reading through some of these threads that i now have access to. And I will admit that I have somewhat done this with one of our original scenes that was not very good quality and very short. I had released that video as a free video and pumped it in the forum with pics. Then later after I got some video editing software and editing the video to make it look better and included some extended video. This better version i then put this better version up for sale in our store and thus promoted it with the free promo forum post.
I dont plan on doing this ever again because i can see that the multiple plugging can become spammy on the forums. I have never reported things in the past. It was only after i became a producer that I myself became more cognizant of some of these rules and at least more willing to contribute to maintaining the structure of the community in fairness and mess.
WAM Photography said: I also started to revisit my older scenes and especially the videos (but also photosets) by using AI techniques to siginificantly improve video quality and upscaling them (e.g. from 720p to 1080p). Now I am curious on how to promote those "remastered" scenes. I was thinking about adding new scenes to my store but obviously that's a grey area because technically it's "old" material. If I only exchange the video files in my scenes no one would ever notice it. How's your view on this?
This does happen occasionally when producers want to go back and upgrade their existing catalogs. Impressive that you've using AI to upscale BTW and I'm sure we'd all love to hear about that process! Anyway, once a scene is promoted, that's pretty much it. Even if it is upgraded or changes ownership, we generally don't want it promoted to the forums or What's New again... just to be consistent. If you've upgraded a whole bunch of scenes, I think it would be fair if you mentioned that on the forum once it's done, but I wouldn't do it for individual scenes. Remember that there are other places on UMD that you could mention the upgraded scenes. You can also contact me directly if you want to work with me on more ideas to get the word out.
WildThang said: I had released that video as a free video and pumped it in the forum with pics. Then later...i then put this better version up for sale in our store and thus promoted it with the free promo forum post.
Nobody's really busting balls over stuff like that as long as it doesn't become a pattern.
Something I like to do is grab a few mobile phone shots during shooting. And I did used to like to occasionally do a post of a few photos from stuff shot but not yet edited or queued for release, to me those aren't the same as "here's a sneak preview of something we're relasing next weekend", as in my case it could be six years or more before any given scene actually gets released - I still have stuff that Chastity did back in 2014 in the stockpile.
But, where I might post teasers once every other year other people could well see those and assume they had carte blanche to post teasers every few weeks. So fair enough, no forum teaser posts.
However I've realised a better option is to set up Teaser Galleries in my photo area and post random occasional shots there. Keeps them out of the way of the main forum, keeps them all together where people can easily find them, and I'm guessing very occasioally adding a line "Check my teaser galleries under my profile for more of this model's unreleased work" to a valid promo for a scene just released would be OK? Have already created the Langstonedale one as we're shooting mud at the moment, and will set up a Saturation Hall one in due course.